«Independentism has nothing leftist or progressive»

Peru Erroteta

Interview with Carmen Claudín

She studied philosophy at the Sorbonne. Political analyst, specializing in post-Soviet space. Researcher at CIDOB, of which she was attached director. Well-known at heart of Marxism, she has published a book about Lenin and the cultural revolution.

Why is the independentist fever in Catalonia surprising?

I arrived in Spain in 1964, the year that began the expulsion process of my father and Semprún from the PCE, but I did not know. I was very excited because I would finally know this country that said it was mine. But until 1976 I did not settle in Barcelona with Pere. I lived in France and went on vacation to Spain, alternating Madrid and Barcelona, ​​which was always my favorite city, because I felt it more liberal, was more advanced ... Like any person of the left, formed in Marxism, had a deeply rooted antinationalism. In Catalonia I discovered that one thing is aggressive nationalism, excluding, and another one national identity (one of the vectors that, obviously, articulate nationalism) that could be a dialog, liberal, illustrated ... And not only that one could live with that, but one could work on a political and social scale. Suddenly, with the "procés", all this reality that I knew, and that I continue to think that it is somewhere, it began to crack brutally. The thing I will always repproach the pro-independence parties is the abrupt and completely irresponsible way in which this society has been fractured.

Which in no way is recognized by the processist discourse, which continues to present the Catalonia-Spain antinomy as the only vector of the conflict ...

They say the rupture in Catalonia is PP's propaganda. But I being a entirely left person, say that it is totally true. You need to be blind or hypocritical not to see it. And if the separatists were sensible persons would know what is happening in relation to our society, instead of denying reality. I think there are some leaders (perhaps Junqueras) who have begun to perceive it. But, objectively, this society has fractured. Everyone, all of us, know breaks in our environment. And when that happens the statistics are over. Families, lifelong friends who have stopped working, colleagues at work who prefer to be silent ... And we all know how independentists are engaged in occupying entities, institutions ..., and in a way absolutely non-democratic.

To persist in the non-recognition of the Catalan plurality, with all that this entails, could end up leading to the outbreak of a civil conflict with even more serious consequences ...

They deny the polarization of Catalan society because it is always more convenient to deny reality. For a while, clear up. Because there comes a time that this self-destructs because reality is imposed. And also because it involves questioning themselves. It is easier to attribute all the problems of Catalonia (which, in fact, it has, like any society) to the foreign agent. Blaming them in Madrid, understood as the Spanish state, is the easiest. This is not the exclusive heritage of Catalan nationalism. Governors, countries and leaders from all latitudes have always used that. But in Catalonia they are doing it massively. If they recognized that they are breaking society, it would be supposed to assume that they are not doing well anymore, and that there is indeed a part of society that does not agree with what they are doing.

In any case, there are those who deny the condition of Catalans to the mixed Catalans, who do not speak Catalan, who do not vote for nationalist parties ...

Using a survey (which might be advisable to update) about the support that would be given to the celebration of a pact and legal referendum, which resulted in a massive result in favor, have concluded that this expresses support for independence. This, in the context of nationalist discourse, ends up being understood by people. And there are also independentists (perhaps not all) who argue that those in this other Catalonia are not Catalans. First of all, it is full of life-long Catalans who are against the process, and with respect to the other Catalans, the independentists leaders say whether these people will continue to have citizenship and membership in Catalonia or not, with independence. Because if they refuse membership now, they will have to continue to deny it later. And they will remain with half of the population.

And all this why?

There is a conjunction of factors. We talked about the independentists, but we can not understand the situation in Catalonia without taking into account the still centralist view in Spain. The whole issue of the Constitutional Court, when the Statute falls, has greatly influenced the process. An outrage from the political point of view, which irritates many people and uses nationalism in their favor. This is accompanied by the increasing discontent caused by the economic crisis, obviously. And a leak forward to leave in the background all issues of corruption. At that time, President Mas loses control, but there is a conjunction of pragmatic and even cyclical people who, irresponsibly, use this, and unleash a process with a life of its own.

The Catalan left, with so much lineage, perhaps did not know how to calibrate in the just dimension what was being emphasized in nationalism or did it choose to do as an ostrich?

In Catalonia, there was a political struggle in Madrid or Seville. Convergència was the centre-right party, perhaps more liberal than a PP, that did not end up rooting. When Pujol said what Catalan is who lives and works in Catalonia, I thought chapeau. This is a civic definition and it is what has been destroyed. The left never had to count on the national axis as one of the cornerstones of Catalan politics. A little has always been, this, but it was understood that there was a secular way of being Catalan. That was normal. In this scenario, it was more difficult to understand a party like the Esquerra Republicana, which for me has always been a nationalist party. That left I do not understand. I think it's a weird party. The other two parties on the left were lay. You could supposedly be more to the left if you were of Iniciativa, but there has never been a discussion about what it is to be or not to be Catalan. On the other hand, yes about social, economic policies ... One of the most visible effects of the process has been the destruction of political formations in Catalonia, including some of those who have participated in the nationalist front. Now it's up to the Comúns ... I still do not understand the Comúns. I can not understand his relationship with the institutional structure, and I do not want to say if they are doing their job well in the city of Barcelona or not. This is not so much as the fact that it takes so long to understand that institutional functioning has its own logic, regardless of the political party that manages it. If you want to get your message out, you must use the institutional machinery very well. The Comúns have been spending too much time doing what the French call pedaling inside the yaghourt. In relation to the process, it seems to me a real outrage what the Comúns have done. Because if something has to be asked to a politician it is clarity. And what can be demonstrated is that their criticism of Spanishism, Spanish nationalism, to Madrid ... has always been more fierce, articulated, constant and coherent than with the independentism. The confusion that this generates is something I can not accept. Because I believe that there is nothing left or progressive in independentism.

It does not seem that the Comúns are one of the most finished expressions of leftist movement, understood as a childhood disease of communism, as Lenin said?

I see more this at Podemos, although there is a fraction of the Comúns that are clearly that. There is also a part that is federalist and consistent with the tradition of the left. Like me, surely there are many people who ask themselves what to vote for in the next elections. Ada Colau produced a very positive impression, but her role in relation to the procés can not be understood. And left, in general, I see it badly, in Spain and in Europe. In the beginning, Podemos irritated me a lot, especially in relation to the discourse that they described as something new and to me sounded like the tunnel of time. A very strong impression of déjà-vu, both in relation to historical communism and with May 68, that I lived. We already had said so. I want something different. That injustice has to have an end has been said by so many people and for so long ... What needs to be adapted to the times we live is how.

https://www.eltriangle.eu/ca/entrevistes/l-independentisme-no-te-res-d-esquerres-ni-progressista_101344_102.html

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Sandrine Morel, journalist correspondent of Le Monde in Catalonia: "The independence of Catalonia is no longer a threat"

Manel Manchón 

The journalist correspondent of 'Le Monde' in Catalonia points out that Puigdemont "has lost touch" and that he is not sympathetic, although the trial of the prisoners will mark the future of the pro-independence movement.



Sandrine Morel, a journalist, is clear about what he has learned from the independence process in Catalonia. She points out what you see and gets informed with different sources, from all angles. She is the correspondent of Le Monde in Spain and has covered everything that happened in Catalonia in recent years with profusion. Now she admits that the interest has been reduced and that the figure of Carles Puigdemont has "lost its grip". Much of her experience was captured in In the catalan hurricane (Planet). In this interview with Crónica Global, she considers that the key must be sought in the struggle within nationalism, with Convergència trying not to lose power, for the benefit of Esquerra Republicana. Morel has worked for several media before, for Le Nouvel Observateur, La Voix du Nord, Les Nouvelles Caledoniennes or La Dépêche du Midi.

 --Question: You have indicated that the independentist movement has lost the story, that the interest for what it defended, in Europe, has descended in a remarkable way. Why?

--Response: I think it has lost weight, it has no story. From Europe it has been perceived that things were taken too far. It is true that it was necessary to pass some facts for that change to occur. And the main one, in my opinion, was the demonstration on October 8, 2017, after everything that happened. It was important because it was spoken, until that moment, of "the Catalans", and not of the independentists. It has nothing to do with the case of Slovenia, where there was a total majority of independentists. The election of Quim Torra as president of the Generalitat was also important. That hurt the independence movement a lot, with that supremacist discourse. His writings were disseminated, everyone knew them, and it was seen that this story had nothing to do with democracy, that it was not against authoritarianism.

--But things were already known about the nature of this independentist movement

- Yes, in Europe it was always thought that in the independentist movement there was a factor of lack of solidarity, like the Northern League in Italy. But everything has also changed when that "Catalan people", although I do not know if we can speak of people, because I think there is a more open and plural citizenship, is with a different Spanish government, with President Pedro Sanchez. That has had a lot of echo in Europe, with decisions at the beginning of his term that made an impression, such as the Aquarius theme. From that moment, for the independence movement it was difficult to speak of authoritarianism with respect to the Spanish Government.

- Now the trial to the imprisoned politicians is coming. Does that give a new letter to the independentist movement in its desire to internationalize the cause?

- The trial mixes the letters again, it will be very complicated for the Government to manage the repercussion of that judgment. Although they do not call them political prisoners in most of the newspapers, they say they are in jail for organizing the referendum, and it is difficult to refute that before the general public. I think that the independentist movement can gain strength again, but we will see it, it depends on how the defenses lawyers face it, and on how to test all the initial arguments.

--But, is that only the question of the political prisoners is left to the independentist movement?

--From the political point of view has lost the initiative. The independence of Catalonia is no longer a threat, nor a priority request. You see that not anything can be solved in that direction. Instead, it is perceived as a loop from which you can not get out.


--The European Union or some European countries can bet on the independentist movement?

--No, I never saw that possibility. Europe has many internal problems. It is not about the work, but it is true that it will depend on how the trial develops.

- Lawyers insist on a political defense, is it because they fear that the legal arguments can really be proved?

--I do not know. What happens is that it is not true that it was to put the polls and that's it. Because, in that case, it was also done in 2014, and nothing happened. Now it's something else. Laws of disconnection were approved in the fall of 2017, that of legal transience. The context is totally different. Those laws passed in the Parliament are a real sword of Damocles on the independentist movement.

- What is the French reader's idea of ​​what happened, on the socio-economic background of the process, for example?

- There are different sensitivities, but what has been perceived was that it was a seesaw movement, where there were demonstrations in the streets, but supported and also urged by the institutions. For me, in any case, what has happened is a reaction of the whole Convergència environment that never wanted to lose power with respect to Esquerra Republicana. That was clear with the 15M movements. The Convergència world wanted to survive and put itself forward to reorient this movement, which, remember, had more elements of violence than in the rest of Spain.

- In his book points to a certain cynicism of the elites with the entire independentist movement.

- I think they played too much. It was a movement, at first, asking for things facing their constituents, with a referendum that they knew they were not going to get. It was a kind of overacting, to get to maintain the political initiative, at a time when Convergència did not stop losing votes. It is a masterful move of Convergència, to be more years in power, because here, I repeat, more than in other places in the rest of Spain, there were germs of violence in 15M. We must remember the images of Artur Mas landing in the Parlament by helicopter. There was a clear interest in capitalizing on this movement of anger, with social cuts by the Government of the Generalitat that were more intense than in other places.

- Le Monde published an editorial defending the referendum, to which the independentist movement grabbed.

- It was at the beginning of September, after the laws passed in the Parliament. It was seen that he was going against a wall and the effects of the movement in Catalan society itself were not perceived. I was quiet, and there were no massive positions against it. It was said that there was a consensus, about 80%, in favor of that referendum, and since there was no story from the Spanish Government, which did not explain well why this was not possible, and without this mobilization, the logical response was that the referendum was proposed. Then it becomes aware that it is more serious, that a drama could be provoked, not only for the State, but for the Catalan society itself, and the consequences of each option were considered.

- The change of government in Spain, with Pedro Sánchez leading, what does it mean in France and in Europe as a whole?

- There's a Sánchez moment, that changes things. It is very complicated for the independence movement, which has had in the PP and Mariano Rajoy as his black beasts, until then. When Sanchez wins, the story changes, with a party, the PSOE, which still has a force in Catalonia, with the PSC. He promises to meet with Quim Torra, not to inflame more the debate, and tries to open distention areas. It is true that on the other side there is still no predisposition. The independentists change then that focus, and they attack Judge Llarena and the King, but they know that in Catalonia it would not be understood that the arrival of the right was facilitated.

- Do you detect a "the worse the better"?

- There are those who believe it, to awaken more the independentists fighters. If there is a government with Vox, or supported by Vox, then the independentist movement will win points, because it will succeed in raising the case against the extreme right.

- How does Vox look in France?

- As it is, a far-right party, comparable to Le Pen. Here has a more conservative character. Vox is ultracentralist, and in France there is no such debate on that issue. He has, like Le Pen, a speech against immigration, and he is congratulated by his friends of the extreme right in Europe. It is clear.'

- Do you consider that there is a meeting point between the independentist movement and the movement of yellow vests in France, with concrete demands that end up exploding?

--No comparison, but there may be meeting points, because in both cases it is a reaction against the elites of the State, against those who rule. Regarding the yellow vests, it is also a claim, although nuanced, of representative democracy, with a denunciation of corrupt institutions. As in Catalonia there is also an element of tax burden, of not wanting to pay more taxes, which links to the so-called fiscal deficit wielded by the Catalan pro-independence movement: pay less and have more money.

- Do you think that the Anglo-Saxon media have been more 'understanding' with the independence movement than the French or continental?

- I would not say it like that. I know many Anglo-Saxon correspondents who were and are very clear about it. It has been more about the tribunes of journalists who were further away. But what has happened is that the independentists themselves have been changing the concepts. Now we talk more about the Catalan republic, and that, it is true, has had a great impact on the European media, because it links the Republic against the Franco regime. He has awakened in a part of the left that sympathy for the Republic, although what is requested is a Catalan Republic, separated from Spain.

--Although it has been demonstrated that the movement is not as peaceful as it was aimed?

- I do not know if that has had more or less importance. What has been seen is that there is a divided society, two halves. It is understood that there is a fracture, with those who put yellow ties and those who remove them from public spaces. That is pathetic and demonstrates the fracture.

- Has the pro-independence movement influenced France, in its southern zone, with Perpignan?

- No, it has not had any influence. There is no problem in places like Perpignan. Nationalisms do not have sympathy. Catalan nationalism is a nationalism and with Torra at the forefront it has become more evident. Torra goes against the Spaniards, has expressed his contempt for the Spaniards, and that is complicated to sell as a democratic movement. And the figure of Carles Puigdemont in Europe has lost strength, has no pull.

- Why Puigdemont has lost that initial pull?

- You do not have sympathy, after having been responsible for all this. He has broken the story of the independentist movement. You see everything as a farce, with a lot of contradictions and statements. It has all been seen as a clowning.

- Do you understand that there has been a judicial excess, with preventive prisons, in comparison with what would have happened in France?

--In France it would not have happened that way. A similar situation is not possible because there are no regional parliaments. But what happens is that in France the State does not have complexes. And in Spain there are. There are complexes. In France it would have acted before, but politically as well. The President of the Republic would have addressed directly to the Catalans, everyone, and that was not done. I expected Rajoy to react and nothing happened. You can not take certain decisions without being labeled a fascist or I do not know what. There are precautions in Spain that you do not have in France.

- Is Sanchez in the hands of the independentists or not?

- I believe that Sanchez is now with an electoral government. He is teaching what he would do with another majority. That the independentists have the key to the government makes more complicated to apply their program, but we are more in a government that teaches what it could do. It is weak and with supports as different as those of Podemos or those of the PNV, but I do not see it in the hands of the independentists. It does not mean that this government is going to give in to what the independentists demand. What he does is gestures towards all Catalans, which will be useful for any other government in Madrid. It is also true that their survival depends on them, with the approval of budgets in the air. If you can not take them forward, the deadline to call elections will be in October.



https://cronicaglobal.elespanol.com/pensamiento/conversaciones-sobre-cataluna/sandrine-morel-independencia-cataluna-amenaza_213432_102.html

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Antoni Bayona i Rocamora, former Chief Counsel-General of the Parliament of Catalonia publishes the book: No todo vale: La mirada de un jurista a las entrañas del procés (Not anything goes: The look of a jurist to the bowels of the procés)

Antoni Bayona, Chief-Counsel General of the Parliament of Catalonia between 2012 and 2018, explains here what happened in the last year and provides the reader with new keys to understand the weaknesses of the independence strategy, which has not wanted to assume the limitations imposed by the framework in that develops. It is also about putting on the table that excesses have been committed from all the institutions, also the state ones.


 A. P. G.  

06.09.2017 – 14:48 H

 Who is Antoni Bayona, the man who refuses to process the referendum?

With the inestimable collaboration of the Secretary General of the Parliament, the Chief Counsel-General has ordered the officials of the Chamber to refuse to participate in any procedure.

Antoni Bayona i Rocamora is the Chief Counsel-General of the Parliament of Catalonia and on Wednesday he refused to pass the Catalan referendum law, seconded by the secretary general, Xavier Muro. He ordered his officials not to intervene in any process, to the extent that it had to be the deputies of Junts-pel-Sí those who uploaded to the website of the Official Gazette of the Parlament the proposal of law without the signature of the lawyer, which for the opposition it invalidates the whole process. In addition, Bayona and Muro prepared a three-page report arguing why it is illegal to pass the law.
 
Antoni Bayona has a degree in law since 1977 from the Autonomous University of Barcelona, ​​doctor by Pompeu Fabra, in 1991, and specialized in regional law, territorial organization and local regime. Little 'suspected' of being anti-nationalist, Professor Bayona has been linked to the Generalitat of Catalonia for more than 30 years. Between 1988 and 1994 he was a member of the Consell Consultiu de la Generalitat, to be appointed in 1994 director of the Institut d'Estudis Autonomics, until 2003, year in which he became advisor to the Consell de l'Audiovisual de Catalunya, until 2006.



Although the news has put him this Wednesday in the focus of the storm experienced in the Catalan Parliament, Bayona already gave unequivocal evidence of his position on the drift that was leading the 'proces' in an article published last July in the' Magazine Catalan Public Law '. Under the title "The political future of Catalonia: the role of Parliament", the senior lawyer of the Autonomous Catalan Chamber put in serious doubt the legal foundations of the 'procés', and warned: "There is not always a clear line of continuity and coherence "
 
He already warned in an article

In addition, it warned that a unilateral referendum such as the one that has been admitted for processing "in such a hostile context may have consequences in terms of recognizing its effects in the internal and external sphere, since it seems evident that the requirements can not be met. and the minimum standards required for a participatory procedure such as this one ".
 
Bayona already considered in the article an "error" to affirm that the State is authoritarian. And it went back to the elections of September 27, 2015 - the beginning of the 'procés'- as the origin of the whole problem of legality that culminates with the last resolutions of the Parliament, which are committed to the unilateral route. "They do not help to give credibility to a negotiating will The way the referendum issue appears in this final section of the process seems to indicate, therefore, that it is more a tactical movement whose ultimate political objective is to strengthen the legitimacy of the unilateral way initially foreseen in Resolution 1 / XI, demonstrating that it has insisted on the will to make the consultation, but that, if this is not done, it will not have been due to causes attributable to the Catalan institutions, "he said.

For Bayona, the results of the elections of September 27, 2015 gave the separatists a parliamentary majority "that does not have a correspondence with the majority of votes obtained." "If from the political point of view the elections should constitute a plebiscite to prove the existence of a social majority in favor of the independence of Catalonia, this political objective was not achieved, nor does it seem correct to denaturalize it with the criterion of the seats obtained", it concluded then.
 
An expert in the fieldBayona, now put into question by those who once were traveling companions, is considered one of the largest experts in regional law with several works behind him, such as 'El dret a legislar en l'Estat autonòmic', Barcelona: Escola d'Administració Pública de Catalunya, 1993; 'Comments on the Statute of Autonomy of Catalonia: performance competences', Barcelona: Institut d'Estudis Autonòmics, 1991; 'Comments on the Statute of Autonomy of Catalonia: competences of legislative development', Barcelona: Institut d'Estudis Autonòmics, 1991, or 'Comments on the Statute of Autonomy of Catalonia: exclusive competences', Barcelona: Institut d'Estudis Autonòmics, 1991 .




https://www.elconfidencial.com/espana/cataluna/2017-09-06/bayona-parlament-referendum-1-o_1439372/


Marcos Lamelas

06/09/2017 13:14 - Actualizado: 07/09/2017 16:46

The Parlament officials unhooked from the independence process

The opposition requests explanations from Forcadell and the president says that those who have signed are the four members of JxS in the Bureau because they do not want to put officials at risk

Parliament officials unhooked from the process of independence that Junts pel Sí and the CUP want to push, as explained by the vice president of the Bureau and member of C's, José María Espejo.

Thus, the secretary, Xavier Muro, and the Chief Counsel-General of the Parliament, Antoni Bayona, have refused to pass the referendum law because of its manifest illegality.

When before the Bureau it was evident that Bayona and the body of lawyers had refused to pass the law, it was the president herself, Carme Forcadell, who has assumed responsibility for its processing, something for which she is not legally entitled. For C's it is an act of nullity in its own right.

https://www.elconfidencial.com/espana/cataluna/2017-09-06/secretario-parlament-no-firma-ley-referendum_1439242/

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