Interview with Carmen Claudín
She studied philosophy at the Sorbonne. Political analyst, specializing in post-Soviet space. Researcher at CIDOB, of which she was attached director. Well-known at heart of Marxism, she has published a book about Lenin and the cultural revolution.
Why is the independentist fever in Catalonia surprising?
I arrived in Spain in 1964, the year that began the expulsion process of my father and Semprún from the PCE, but I did not know. I was very excited because I would finally know this country that said it was mine. But until 1976 I did not settle in Barcelona with Pere. I lived in France and went on vacation to Spain, alternating Madrid and Barcelona, which was always my favorite city, because I felt it more liberal, was more advanced ... Like any person of the left, formed in Marxism, had a deeply rooted antinationalism. In Catalonia I discovered that one thing is aggressive nationalism, excluding, and another one national identity (one of the vectors that, obviously, articulate nationalism) that could be a dialog, liberal, illustrated ... And not only that one could live with that, but one could work on a political and social scale. Suddenly, with the "procés", all this reality that I knew, and that I continue to think that it is somewhere, it began to crack brutally. The thing I will always repproach the pro-independence parties is the abrupt and completely irresponsible way in which this society has been fractured.
Which in no way is recognized by the processist discourse, which continues to present the Catalonia-Spain antinomy as the only vector of the conflict ...
They say the rupture in Catalonia is PP's propaganda. But I being a entirely left person, say that it is totally true. You need to be blind or hypocritical not to see it. And if the separatists were sensible persons would know what is happening in relation to our society, instead of denying reality. I think there are some leaders (perhaps Junqueras) who have begun to perceive it. But, objectively, this society has fractured. Everyone, all of us, know breaks in our environment. And when that happens the statistics are over. Families, lifelong friends who have stopped working, colleagues at work who prefer to be silent ... And we all know how independentists are engaged in occupying entities, institutions ..., and in a way absolutely non-democratic.
To persist in the non-recognition of the Catalan plurality, with all that this entails, could end up leading to the outbreak of a civil conflict with even more serious consequences ...
They deny the polarization of Catalan society because it is always more convenient to deny reality. For a while, clear up. Because there comes a time that this self-destructs because reality is imposed. And also because it involves questioning themselves. It is easier to attribute all the problems of Catalonia (which, in fact, it has, like any society) to the foreign agent. Blaming them in Madrid, understood as the Spanish state, is the easiest. This is not the exclusive heritage of Catalan nationalism. Governors, countries and leaders from all latitudes have always used that. But in Catalonia they are doing it massively. If they recognized that they are breaking society, it would be supposed to assume that they are not doing well anymore, and that there is indeed a part of society that does not agree with what they are doing.
In any case, there are those who deny the condition of Catalans to the mixed Catalans, who do not speak Catalan, who do not vote for nationalist parties ...
Using a survey (which might be advisable to update) about the support that would be given to the celebration of a pact and legal referendum, which resulted in a massive result in favor, have concluded that this expresses support for independence. This, in the context of nationalist discourse, ends up being understood by people. And there are also independentists (perhaps not all) who argue that those in this other Catalonia are not Catalans. First of all, it is full of life-long Catalans who are against the process, and with respect to the other Catalans, the independentists leaders say whether these people will continue to have citizenship and membership in Catalonia or not, with independence. Because if they refuse membership now, they will have to continue to deny it later. And they will remain with half of the population.
And all this why?
There is a conjunction of factors. We talked about the independentists, but we can not understand the situation in Catalonia without taking into account the still centralist view in Spain. The whole issue of the Constitutional Court, when the Statute falls, has greatly influenced the process. An outrage from the political point of view, which irritates many people and uses nationalism in their favor. This is accompanied by the increasing discontent caused by the economic crisis, obviously. And a leak forward to leave in the background all issues of corruption. At that time, President Mas loses control, but there is a conjunction of pragmatic and even cyclical people who, irresponsibly, use this, and unleash a process with a life of its own.
The Catalan left, with so much lineage, perhaps did not know how to calibrate in the just dimension what was being emphasized in nationalism or did it choose to do as an ostrich?
In Catalonia, there was a political struggle in Madrid or Seville. Convergència was the centre-right party, perhaps more liberal than a PP, that did not end up rooting. When Pujol said what Catalan is who lives and works in Catalonia, I thought chapeau. This is a civic definition and it is what has been destroyed. The left never had to count on the national axis as one of the cornerstones of Catalan politics. A little has always been, this, but it was understood that there was a secular way of being Catalan. That was normal. In this scenario, it was more difficult to understand a party like the Esquerra Republicana, which for me has always been a nationalist party. That left I do not understand. I think it's a weird party. The other two parties on the left were lay. You could supposedly be more to the left if you were of Iniciativa, but there has never been a discussion about what it is to be or not to be Catalan. On the other hand, yes about social, economic policies ... One of the most visible effects of the process has been the destruction of political formations in Catalonia, including some of those who have participated in the nationalist front. Now it's up to the Comúns ... I still do not understand the Comúns. I can not understand his relationship with the institutional structure, and I do not want to say if they are doing their job well in the city of Barcelona or not. This is not so much as the fact that it takes so long to understand that institutional functioning has its own logic, regardless of the political party that manages it. If you want to get your message out, you must use the institutional machinery very well. The Comúns have been spending too much time doing what the French call pedaling inside the yaghourt. In relation to the process, it seems to me a real outrage what the Comúns have done. Because if something has to be asked to a politician it is clarity. And what can be demonstrated is that their criticism of Spanishism, Spanish nationalism, to Madrid ... has always been more fierce, articulated, constant and coherent than with the independentism. The confusion that this generates is something I can not accept. Because I believe that there is nothing left or progressive in independentism.
It does not seem that the Comúns are one of the most finished expressions of leftist movement, understood as a childhood disease of communism, as Lenin said?
I see more this at Podemos, although there is a fraction of the Comúns that are clearly that. There is also a part that is federalist and consistent with the tradition of the left. Like me, surely there are many people who ask themselves what to vote for in the next elections. Ada Colau produced a very positive impression, but her role in relation to the procés can not be understood. And left, in general, I see it badly, in Spain and in Europe. In the beginning, Podemos irritated me a lot, especially in relation to the discourse that they described as something new and to me sounded like the tunnel of time. A very strong impression of déjà-vu, both in relation to historical communism and with May 68, that I lived. We already had said so. I want something different. That injustice has to have an end has been said by so many people and for so long ... What needs to be adapted to the times we live is how.
https://www.eltriangle.eu/ca/entrevistes/l-independentisme-no-te-res-d-esquerres-ni-progressista_101344_102.html
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