The journalist correspondent of 'Le Monde' in Catalonia points out that Puigdemont "has lost touch" and that he is not sympathetic, although the trial of the prisoners will mark the future of the pro-independence movement.
Sandrine Morel, a journalist, is clear about what he has learned from the independence process in Catalonia. She points out what you see and gets informed with different sources, from all angles. She is the correspondent of Le Monde in Spain and has covered everything that happened in Catalonia in recent years with profusion. Now she admits that the interest has been reduced and that the figure of Carles Puigdemont has "lost its grip". Much of her experience was captured in In the catalan hurricane (Planet). In this interview with Crónica Global, she considers that the key must be sought in the struggle within nationalism, with Convergència trying not to lose power, for the benefit of Esquerra Republicana. Morel has worked for several media before, for Le Nouvel Observateur, La Voix du Nord, Les Nouvelles Caledoniennes or La Dépêche du Midi.
--Response: I think it has lost weight, it has no story. From Europe it has been perceived that things were taken too far. It is true that it was necessary to pass some facts for that change to occur. And the main one, in my opinion, was the demonstration on October 8, 2017, after everything that happened. It was important because it was spoken, until that moment, of "the Catalans", and not of the independentists. It has nothing to do with the case of Slovenia, where there was a total majority of independentists. The election of Quim Torra as president of the Generalitat was also important. That hurt the independence movement a lot, with that supremacist discourse. His writings were disseminated, everyone knew them, and it was seen that this story had nothing to do with democracy, that it was not against authoritarianism.
--But things were already known about the nature of this independentist movement
- Yes, in Europe it was always thought that in the independentist movement there was a factor of lack of solidarity, like the Northern League in Italy. But everything has also changed when that "Catalan people", although I do not know if we can speak of people, because I think there is a more open and plural citizenship, is with a different Spanish government, with President Pedro Sanchez. That has had a lot of echo in Europe, with decisions at the beginning of his term that made an impression, such as the Aquarius theme. From that moment, for the independence movement it was difficult to speak of authoritarianism with respect to the Spanish Government.
- Now the trial to the imprisoned politicians is coming. Does that give a new letter to the independentist movement in its desire to internationalize the cause?
- The trial mixes the letters again, it will be very complicated for the Government to manage the repercussion of that judgment. Although they do not call them political prisoners in most of the newspapers, they say they are in jail for organizing the referendum, and it is difficult to refute that before the general public. I think that the independentist movement can gain strength again, but we will see it, it depends on how the defenses lawyers face it, and on how to test all the initial arguments.
--But, is that only the question of the political prisoners is left to the independentist movement?
--From the political point of view has lost the initiative. The independence of Catalonia is no longer a threat, nor a priority request. You see that not anything can be solved in that direction. Instead, it is perceived as a loop from which you can not get out.
--The European Union or some European countries can bet on the independentist movement?
--No, I never saw that possibility. Europe has many internal problems. It is not about the work, but it is true that it will depend on how the trial develops.
- Lawyers insist on a political defense, is it because they fear that the legal arguments can really be proved?
--I do not know. What happens is that it is not true that it was to put the polls and that's it. Because, in that case, it was also done in 2014, and nothing happened. Now it's something else. Laws of disconnection were approved in the fall of 2017, that of legal transience. The context is totally different. Those laws passed in the Parliament are a real sword of Damocles on the independentist movement.
- What is the French reader's idea of what happened, on the socio-economic background of the process, for example?
- There are different sensitivities, but what has been perceived was that it was a seesaw movement, where there were demonstrations in the streets, but supported and also urged by the institutions. For me, in any case, what has happened is a reaction of the whole Convergència environment that never wanted to lose power with respect to Esquerra Republicana. That was clear with the 15M movements. The Convergència world wanted to survive and put itself forward to reorient this movement, which, remember, had more elements of violence than in the rest of Spain.
- In his book points to a certain cynicism of the elites with the entire independentist movement.
- I think they played too much. It was a movement, at first, asking for things facing their constituents, with a referendum that they knew they were not going to get. It was a kind of overacting, to get to maintain the political initiative, at a time when Convergència did not stop losing votes. It is a masterful move of Convergència, to be more years in power, because here, I repeat, more than in other places in the rest of Spain, there were germs of violence in 15M. We must remember the images of Artur Mas landing in the Parlament by helicopter. There was a clear interest in capitalizing on this movement of anger, with social cuts by the Government of the Generalitat that were more intense than in other places.
- Le Monde published an editorial defending the referendum, to which the independentist movement grabbed.
- It was at the beginning of September, after the laws passed in the Parliament. It was seen that he was going against a wall and the effects of the movement in Catalan society itself were not perceived. I was quiet, and there were no massive positions against it. It was said that there was a consensus, about 80%, in favor of that referendum, and since there was no story from the Spanish Government, which did not explain well why this was not possible, and without this mobilization, the logical response was that the referendum was proposed. Then it becomes aware that it is more serious, that a drama could be provoked, not only for the State, but for the Catalan society itself, and the consequences of each option were considered.
- The change of government in Spain, with Pedro Sánchez leading, what does it mean in France and in Europe as a whole?
- There's a Sánchez moment, that changes things. It is very complicated for the independence movement, which has had in the PP and Mariano Rajoy as his black beasts, until then. When Sanchez wins, the story changes, with a party, the PSOE, which still has a force in Catalonia, with the PSC. He promises to meet with Quim Torra, not to inflame more the debate, and tries to open distention areas. It is true that on the other side there is still no predisposition. The independentists change then that focus, and they attack Judge Llarena and the King, but they know that in Catalonia it would not be understood that the arrival of the right was facilitated.
- Do you detect a "the worse the better"?
- There are those who believe it, to awaken more the independentists fighters. If there is a government with Vox, or supported by Vox, then the independentist movement will win points, because it will succeed in raising the case against the extreme right.
- How does Vox look in France?
- As it is, a far-right party, comparable to Le Pen. Here has a more conservative character. Vox is ultracentralist, and in France there is no such debate on that issue. He has, like Le Pen, a speech against immigration, and he is congratulated by his friends of the extreme right in Europe. It is clear.'
- Do you consider that there is a meeting point between the independentist movement and the movement of yellow vests in France, with concrete demands that end up exploding?
--No comparison, but there may be meeting points, because in both cases it is a reaction against the elites of the State, against those who rule. Regarding the yellow vests, it is also a claim, although nuanced, of representative democracy, with a denunciation of corrupt institutions. As in Catalonia there is also an element of tax burden, of not wanting to pay more taxes, which links to the so-called fiscal deficit wielded by the Catalan pro-independence movement: pay less and have more money.
- Do you think that the Anglo-Saxon media have been more 'understanding' with the independence movement than the French or continental?
- I would not say it like that. I know many Anglo-Saxon correspondents who were and are very clear about it. It has been more about the tribunes of journalists who were further away. But what has happened is that the independentists themselves have been changing the concepts. Now we talk more about the Catalan republic, and that, it is true, has had a great impact on the European media, because it links the Republic against the Franco regime. He has awakened in a part of the left that sympathy for the Republic, although what is requested is a Catalan Republic, separated from Spain.
--Although it has been demonstrated that the movement is not as peaceful as it was aimed?
- I do not know if that has had more or less importance. What has been seen is that there is a divided society, two halves. It is understood that there is a fracture, with those who put yellow ties and those who remove them from public spaces. That is pathetic and demonstrates the fracture.
- Has the pro-independence movement influenced France, in its southern zone, with Perpignan?
- No, it has not had any influence. There is no problem in places like Perpignan. Nationalisms do not have sympathy. Catalan nationalism is a nationalism and with Torra at the forefront it has become more evident. Torra goes against the Spaniards, has expressed his contempt for the Spaniards, and that is complicated to sell as a democratic movement. And the figure of Carles Puigdemont in Europe has lost strength, has no pull.
- Why Puigdemont has lost that initial pull?
- You do not have sympathy, after having been responsible for all this. He has broken the story of the independentist movement. You see everything as a farce, with a lot of contradictions and statements. It has all been seen as a clowning.
- Do you understand that there has been a judicial excess, with preventive prisons, in comparison with what would have happened in France?
--In France it would not have happened that way. A similar situation is not possible because there are no regional parliaments. But what happens is that in France the State does not have complexes. And in Spain there are. There are complexes. In France it would have acted before, but politically as well. The President of the Republic would have addressed directly to the Catalans, everyone, and that was not done. I expected Rajoy to react and nothing happened. You can not take certain decisions without being labeled a fascist or I do not know what. There are precautions in Spain that you do not have in France.
- Is Sanchez in the hands of the independentists or not?
- I believe that Sanchez is now with an electoral government. He is teaching what he would do with another majority. That the independentists have the key to the government makes more complicated to apply their program, but we are more in a government that teaches what it could do. It is weak and with supports as different as those of Podemos or those of the PNV, but I do not see it in the hands of the independentists. It does not mean that this government is going to give in to what the independentists demand. What he does is gestures towards all Catalans, which will be useful for any other government in Madrid. It is also true that their survival depends on them, with the approval of budgets in the air. If you can not take them forward, the deadline to call elections will be in October.
https://cronicaglobal.elespanol.com/pensamiento/conversaciones-sobre-cataluna/sandrine-morel-independencia-cataluna-amenaza_213432_102.html
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